The Current Situation of the Secondary Market

[CJ Matthews]

9 minutes ago, Devilsguy said:

I rarely saw fakes on there and whenever I did, it was usually deleted pretty quickly.

My issue with all of these FB groups are two things:

1) Everybody overvalues their own stuff while severely undervaluing another person's stuff.  The concept of having a fair deal is gone and everyone is trying to bend another person over in a deal they make.  This causes about 75% of all arguments in these groups

2) These groups offer little to nothing in terms of educational or informative discussion.  Instead these groups are basically giant flea markets with the occasional discussion peppered in there, but often many of these are just someone complaining about something.  Rarely do I see a posts like why some jerseys by a team in a certain year are this way and some jerseys are that way.  I do see some of this in the team-specific jersey groups, but even then it is rare.  Seems like a lot of this "in the know" like to keep their knowledge about jerseys to themselves as it seems like they believe this gives them a competitive advantage when it comes to hunting down or obtaining jerseys.  Yet these are also the people who will wax poetically about how the hobby is a community rather than a psuedo drug addiction or how we should educate each other when in reality that rarely happens.

1. This is absolutely true, and a big reason why I didn't mind getting off of Facebook. The problem is also that some people are willing to budge on their prices (some more than others), and then some people aren't willing to budge at all, so there's no point in even having a conversation or trying to find a middle ground. I also think that Facebook has helped kill the market because of how frequently and repeatedly things are posted. Having the same jersey shoved in your face every 2 seconds lowers the value in my opinion.

2) I find this to be another issue. I know that as a member of the Rangers specific group, some people collect only vintage jerseys, and seem to have resources for photomatching and videomatching that I can't find to save my life, and they don't want to share because that's how they keep their advantage when researching and buying those vintage jerseys. I'd love to collect more vintage stuff, but I'm not comfortable and my research abilities are slim to none for that kind of stuff.

[Devilsguy]

10 minutes ago, CJ Matthews said:

1. This is absolutely true, and a big reason why I didn't mind getting off of Facebook. The problem is also that some people are willing to budge on their prices (some more than others), and then some people aren't willing to budge at all, so there's no point in even having a conversation or trying to find a middle ground. I also think that Facebook has helped kill the market because of how frequently and repeatedly things are posted. Having the same jersey shoved in your face every 2 seconds lowers the value in my opinion.

2) I find this to be another issue. I know that as a member of the Rangers specific group, some people collect only vintage jerseys, and seem to have resources for photomatching and videomatching that I can't find to save my life, and they don't want to share because that's how they keep their advantage when researching and buying those vintage jerseys. I'd love to collect more vintage stuff, but I'm not comfortable and my research abilities are slim to none for that kind of stuff.

1) This can be at least partially solved by better moderation.  A lot of the mods seem to have a laissez-faire stance on this and it actually makes things worse.  I can appreciate them not wanting to over-moderate, but I don't think a 5 or 10 day sale post bump rule is too much to ask or too interfering.  Also FB is possibly the worst medium for this hobby to exist on and it is and was much better when it was mostly on forums.

2) Don't worry, it is not restricted to just Rangers collectors lol.  Every team has these long-time collectors who have this same mentality.  I just find it funny how they are often the ones beating the "we must stick together and help one another" drum the loudest.  Problem is no one wants to call them out on it as either 1) their friends and fellow long-time collectors will appear out of the woodwork to attack the other person pointing out the obvious or 2) they are afraid of pissing off these collectors and possibly missing out on a jersey they really want from them if it comes up for sale.

[CJ Matthews]

17 minutes ago, Devilsguy said:

1) This can be at least partially solved by better moderation.  A lot of the mods seem to have a laissez-faire stance on this and it actually makes things worse.  I can appreciate them not wanting to over-moderate, but I don't think a 5 or 10 day sale post bump rule is too much to ask or too interfering.  Also FB is possibly the worst medium for this hobby to exist on and it is and was much better when it was mostly on forums.

2) Don't worry, it is not restricted to just Rangers collectors lol.  Every team has these long-time collectors who have this same mentality.  I just find it funny how they are often the ones beating the "we must stick together and help one another" drum the loudest.  Problem is no one wants to call them out on it as either 1) their friends and fellow long-time collectors will appear out of the woodwork to attack the other person pointing out the obvious or 2) they are afraid of pissing off these collectors and possibly missing out on a jersey they really want from them if it comes up for sale.

1) Yeah Facebook is a bit tough with that since people have conversations (or bash) on the posts which constantly keeps them bumped over and over. It's definitely not the best place for this kind of stuff. I personally would only do an actual bump on my stuff about once a month, which is my same general practice on forums.

2) At this point I don't care if I offend people, because it's not like they're being helpful anyway, and some of them never sell, so you're not going to get anything from them down the line later either. There are definitely some good guys in the hobby. Without dealing with him, Paul Rank looks to be one of those guys. I constantly see people thanking him for helping them with this or that. At the same time, for every Paul Rank, there are about 20 terrible collectors who you want nothing to do with, and that's probably underestimating that number.

[Devilsguy]

Keener posted a short video today on his IG account of putting fake wear on a Red Wings Probert jersey he customized at the request of the customer.

I really really REALLY wish he wouldn't do that.

[mfitz804]

Any customer who requests that should have to wear the jersey while its being done. 

[goal zone]

53 minutes ago, Devilsguy said:

Keener posted a short video today on his IG account of putting fake wear on a Red Wings Probert jersey he customized at the request of the customer.

I really really REALLY wish he wouldn't do that.

 

Wow, I can't believe they would honor that request, crazy.

[Devilsguy]

24 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Any customer who requests that should have to wear the jersey while its being done. 

It was basically having another guy wear the jersey while Keener took a stick and hooked it around the numbers and the jersey itself to create stick marks and scuffs.

[bobbyp6565]

As someone who owns 2 gameworn (and verified!) Probert jerseys, stick marks and scuffs are not something that would tell me he wore it anyway (there are SO many other things to look for) and many of the fighter jersey collectors IM me on FB before buying an enforcer jersey anyway so I can help them confirm if it looks legit or not?

 

[Devilsguy]

3 minutes ago, bobbyp6565 said:

As someone who owns 2 gameworn (and verified!) Probert jerseys, stick marks and scuffs are not something that would tell me he wore it anyway (there are SO many other things to look for) and many of the fighter jersey collectors IM me on FB before buying an enforcer jersey anyway so I can help them confirm if it looks legit or not?

 

Oh I think most hardcore gamer collectors can tell fairly easily if wear is questionable.  I am just worried if the guy who requested the wear doesn't have scruples and decides to sell it on eBay down the line as game worn and some fan comes along and thinks it's legit based off of what looks like wear and whatever story the seller concocts.

There are already a number of CC specials that Custom Crafted put out in the 90's that have fooled even collectors, so adding to this doesn't help.

[bobbyp6565]

2 minutes ago, Devilsguy said:

Oh I think most hardcore gamer collectors can tell fairly easily if wear is questionable.  I am just worried if the guy who requested the wear doesn't have scruples and decides to sell it on eBay down the line as game worn and some fan comes along and thinks it's legit based off of what looks like wear and whatever story the seller concocts.

There are already a number of CC specials that Custom Crafted put out in the 90's that have fooled even collectors, so adding to this doesn't help.

Agreed -

 

[mfitz804]

1 hour ago, Devilsguy said:

It was basically having another guy wear the jersey while Keener took a stick and hooked it around the numbers and the jersey itself to create stick marks and scuffs.

I was thinking more of pelting him with slap shots, stick whacks, and then some collar grabs/punches to the face. You know, for authenticity. 

[flyhighguys94]

On 11/29/2016 at 0:54 PM, cowboys said:

We have done a few deals 

Hey you're right! I did know you for a long time before Facebook group though, and outside of you I have barely ever made deals on there. I completely gave up. Selling stuff on Facebook is useless, at least for me it seems to be. 

[Devilsguy]

13 minutes ago, Dr_Puck said:

It is getting comical on Facebook. It's just the same jerseys over and over again. If you make an offer on a trade, it's usually declined because someone is looking for just that specific year and player. 

That monthly trade post on FB is basically stuff on every single prior month's ones.  And you are right, it's always for extremely particular stuff in return.

[CJ Matthews]

Which is why I never liked trading. Why trade for one specific thing, when you can sell, raise money, and buy it outright? The odds of two people having mutual interests and trading something are slim, and money always talks. You can always sell to one person and then go to the other person who has what you want and make the cash offer.

[CJ Matthews]

The hobby is stagnant due to oversaturation. There's no need to buy something from a collector anymore when the originating company that sells the jerseys has 40 of them and will eventually move on their prices. The collector most likely paid full price and doesn't want to sell for the same 25-50 percent loss that the originating company might be willing to sell at after a certain period of time. The only incentive to deal with collectors now is if you want to form a relationship or cement your place in the hobby as one of the good guys, or if you've got a screw you attitude towards the companies that manage the program of your team in the first place and you're unhappy with how they do things. 

[mfitz804]

3 hours ago, CJ Matthews said:

The hobby is stagnant due to oversaturation. There's no need to buy something from a collector anymore when the originating company that sells the jerseys has 40 of them and will eventually move on their prices. The collector most likely paid full price and doesn't want to sell for the same 25-50 percent loss that the originating company might be willing to sell at after a certain period of time. The only incentive to deal with collectors now is if you want to form a relationship or cement your place in the hobby as one of the good guys, or if you've got a screw you attitude towards the companies that manage the program of your team in the first place and you're unhappy with how they do things. 

I'm convinced, I'm not dealing with any of you knuckleheads anymore!!! 

[Brilliant!]

Pffft...I'd rather give you a bit of my screw you attitude.

[CJ Matthews]

Treated with the utmost respect and kindness, as always lol

[Devilsguy]

On 12/2/2016 at 4:37 PM, CJ Matthews said:

The hobby is stagnant due to oversaturation. There's no need to buy something from a collector anymore when the originating company that sells the jerseys has 40 of them and will eventually move on their prices. The collector most likely paid full price and doesn't want to sell for the same 25-50 percent loss that the originating company might be willing to sell at after a certain period of time. The only incentive to deal with collectors now is if you want to form a relationship or cement your place in the hobby as one of the good guys, or if you've got a screw you attitude towards the companies that manage the program of your team in the first place and you're unhappy with how they do things. 

Very true.  However, dealing with collectors is often the only way you can get nice vintage stuff outside of the auction houses.  Some of my best pieces have come from collectors.

[bluejacket]

On 12/2/2016 at 4:37 PM, CJ Matthews said:

The hobby is stagnant due to oversaturation. There's no need to buy something from a collector anymore when the originating company that sells the jerseys has 40 of them and will eventually move on their prices. The collector most likely paid full price and doesn't want to sell for the same 25-50 percent loss that the originating company might be willing to sell at after a certain period of time. The only incentive to deal with collectors now is if you want to form a relationship or cement your place in the hobby as one of the good guys, or if you've got a screw you attitude towards the companies that manage the program of your team in the first place and you're unhappy with how they do things. 

This is very true for the Blue Jacket market ever since MeiGray took over.  We're seeing jerseys on the secondary marked listed for a 1/4 to 1/2 of their original sale price going unsold for months.  

[oxbo1690]

Did any of you see some of the Game Worn Auction prices? I don't know if it was due to timing or due to a decline in the hobby, but there were a ton of steals there.

[Devilsguy]

2 hours ago, oxbo1690 said:

Did any of you see some of the Game Worn Auction prices? I don't know if it was due to timing or due to a decline in the hobby, but there were a ton of steals there.

Didn't win my first choice, but I felt like the item I won was at least a decent value.  Will post in new arrivals when it comes.

[mfitz804]

I got outbid on the one I was bidding on. It was a retail authentic and I'm totally ok with it, I bid 10% higher than I think I should have. 

[jsh139]

How long did extended bidding go on for?  I got an email at 5:30 that I won what I bid on.  Did it really go for that long?  That's insane.

Also... um, 20% buyer's fee PLUS 6% PA sales tax?  What a ripoff.  Not sure why I as the buyer have to pay a consignment fee.  That should be taken from the seller's proceeds, IMO.  But, whatever.  Not much we can do about it, I guess.

 

[Devilsguy]

5 minutes ago, jsh139 said:

How long did extended bidding go on for?  I got an email at 5:30 that I won what I bid on.  Did it really go for that long?  That's insane.

Also... um, 20% buyer's fee PLUS 6% PA sales tax?  What a ripoff.  Not sure why I as the buyer have to pay a consignment fee.  That should be taken from the seller's proceeds, IMO.  But, whatever.  Not much we can do about it, I guess.

 

Extended bidding ended around 5:30AM.  That's about average time for these auctions to end their extended bidding.  If it ends before 3AM consider yourself lucky.  The jersey I lost out on I was winning up until I was outbid at 4:44AM.

You got hit with the 6% PA tax because of where you live.  That shouldn't affect me as I am in NJ.  The 20% buyer's premium is charged by pretty much every auction house outside of NHL Auctions, eBay and the new Meigray Auctions (not sure as not signed up).  Classic Auctions, Steiner Auctions, Lelands, Heritage Auctions, etc also charge a buyer's premium and they are all roughly 20% as well.  The seller also has to pay GWA.net a fee as well and I believe it is around 20-30% from what I have heard.  Basically these auction houses make about 50% off of each of the lots.  Nice business:)

Part I do not like about Gamewornauctions over the others is that they allow anyone to bid on anything in extended bidding period, even if you have not bid on anything or any particular lot before.  On other sites like Classic Auctions, I believe you have to have placed a bid on a particular lot before it goes into extended bidding to be able to bid during the extended bidding time.  I will admit I will be more than a little annoyed if I lost that one jersey because someone decided to sort of psuedo-snipe me on it.