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redbeard3569

Vintage Hockey Classics

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I would also like to follow up on the VHC scam. It's been ten months now and still nothing. This guy is running a scam, or at least scamming a good portion of customers. I'm going to pursue legal actions as well. I'm going to start by filing a complaint with the police and showing a copy of my purchase receipt. If anyone else is still out of a Jersey I would encourage you to do the same.

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My experience with Vintage Hockey Classics dates back to early January of 2011. Since that time, I too have been told many excuses. A refund was even talked about, but George said he would provide a discount towards other purchases. Like a dummy, I felt sorry for the guy. I purchased, or so I thought a Muskegon Mohwawks IHL Jersey. George said the jersey manufacturer takes their time especially for one offs. As for the crest, he had to purchase ten at a time before

that particular manufacturer would produce them. One night I typed "Complaints about Vintage Hockey Classics" into Google, and this forum came up. I don't know what the laws of limitations are in a situation like this, but I would think a class action law suit is in order and even possible. We all need to stick together in this matter. At the very least, we need to get his web site and business shut down. Any suggestions on how to move forward as a group are welcome.

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I can't recall the complete timeline for my situation, but I believe it took me 8 months to get my jersey, which I was told would take 2 months. When it finally arrived, it was untagged and at least a size too small, as well as lacking any sleeve numbers! The process to get a refund from him took another month or so.

Based on this thread I'd start attempts to get my money back as soon as possible. Good luck to you all.

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Hello All............

Made a few phone calls to Tonawanda Police and was directed to file a complaint at: www.ic3.gov

I also contacted PayPal who said they will investigate, hopefully to cut off the financial source.

However, generally after 45 days it goes between the purchaser and the bank for the credit card.

Further, they stated that when fraud is mentioned to the credit card company, they usually take fast action.

Spoke also to Google, who said reports can be filed through Google Spam. Police department didn't

want to do a whole lot. The unfortunate part is that they have the conncetions to get immediate action.

I will keep eveyone informed as much as I can. Let's shut this guy down!

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My experience with Vintage Hockey Classics dates back to early January of 2011. Since that time, I too have been told many excuses. A refund was even talked about, but George said he would provide a discount towards other purchases. Like a dummy, I felt sorry for the guy. I purchased, or so I thought a Muskegon Mohwawks IHL Jersey. George said the jersey manufacturer takes their time especially for one offs. As for the crest, he had to purchase ten at a time before

that particular manufacturer would produce them. One night I typed "Complaints about Vintage Hockey Classics" into Google, and this forum came up. I don't know what the laws of limitations are in a situation like this, but I would think a class action law suit is in order and even possible. We all need to stick together in this matter. At the very least, we need to get his web site and business shut down. Any suggestions on how to move forward as a group are welcome.

The detective handling the case is Mike Kenny mkenney@tonawandacitypd.com - He said to get in touch with him and encourage any others that may have been wronged. This detective has been 100% professional and has been a huge help. Can't give you the details, but he seems to be on it. We will see. He said to call his office 716-692-2121 ext-309

He said to pass his info on. I tried to post to the board, but because I am new it wont let me do too much. Please feel free to post this stuff. If you want to call him to verify, please feel free. I don't think we will ever see our money, but if I can be a pain in this guys Arse, I intend to do it. He may be facing federal wire fraud charges. Ken

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Guess who called me last night? Our boy George Kuhn. He left me a message about how he was the customer service dept in his company and he should fire himself, blah blah blah. Offered up a full refund and told me he would get it out this week. He has proven to all of us, he is not to be trusted. Let's see if he redeems himself. Good Luck - Ken

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Based on my experience, you'll have to remind him about the refund.

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Thanks to all for keeping this thread alive. I received a cheque from George Kuhn today via registered mail. It was for $198 - not the $214 I originally paid, but I will take it. I am going to deposit it ASAP as I am not confident it will clear. There was no message or note with the cheque. So odd.

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Based on my experience, you'll have to remind him about the refund.

I got a Money Order in for $ 18.00 less them I paid him. Strange. I am not so inclined to let it go.

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Seems our boy George can't get enough scamming out of his system. It appears that he owes myself and others money, but he is on eBay buying stuff with our money. Look him up under oilkings2012. Does George Kuhn owe you money? Send him a message on eBay also.

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I picked up a WHA 1979 Gretzky All Star Jersey that I believe was done by Vintage Hockey Classics. Beautiful job on the logod my only discreprencie is that the Gretzky name was done in red not in the correct color of blue. I am not 100% positive the jerseynI picked up was done by him but it looks absolutely identical to the one he has pictured on his his. If only you could see a little more detail.

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Anybody ever do business with Vintage Hockey Classics? I am looking to get a jersey done from a defunct IHL team and can't seen to find anybody that can promise to get the lettering done right. Vintage Hockey Classics claims to be able to not only make exact copies of the jerseys but also get the lettering and numbering right as well.

Just looking for anything anybody can offer up about these guys.

Thanks

this guy is a scammer EVERYONE PAY ATTENTION DONT BUY FROM HIM the attorny general office is after this guy and so are the tonawanada police dept and the secert service

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**CIVIL SUIT***

I am a fellow victim of this guy and wanted to let you know I contacted Det Mike Kenney of the Tonawanda City Police Department. This was his response;

"I would suggest you contact Karen Davis from the NYS Attny Generals office and make her aware of your issues. She has taken over the case and is contacting each victim to obtain a deposition to be used in a civil suit filed by her office against Mr Kuhn. Karen's e-mail address is (Karen.Davis@ag.ny.gov), phone # 716-853-8416."

I urge you to help us get justice for yourself and all others who have been ripped off by this man.

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I'm having the same issue with "George" at VHC. No emails or returned calls since December. I paid for a Columbus Checkers jersey back in October. Very unprofessional. I blame myself.

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Vintage Hockey Jersey Classics update - From the New York Attorney Generals office :

Our office is preparing to litigate against Mr. Kuhn, as efforts to resolve this with him have not been successful. The process of preparing a case does not happen overnight, it involves a lot of legal work on our end, and be assured we have several staff members devoted to getting this done as soon as possible. We will not be able to continue to keep replying to daily individual emails asking for status updates, as we cannot discuss the details of an ongoing litigation with the public, but we will update everyone when there is a significant outcome. Everyone should make sure our office has your complaint along with proofs of payment, if they don't already. thank you for your patience in this matter.

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This is all very informative. Thanks for the updates guys.

I purchased two jerseys from George Kuhn (at least that's the name I know him by) and it took 16 months from the time of payment to delivery. The two Pittsburgh Hornets jerseys on his Web site are mine. Both had some inaccuracies, but nothing I couldn't fix myself. During the wait, I had 3 or 4 long talks with George mostly about our shared love of the game of hockey. To George's credit he never lied to me. He just never game me a straight answer to the key question about my order: When? I came away actually liking the guy, who I told on more than one occasion that I often wondered how he stayed in business with such a horrible record for delivery.

The jerseys, however, were very well made and I momentarily when brain dead and ordered a third. That was back in mid-November. Because of the length of time it took for the first two to be delivered, I figured it would take a good period of time to get my third jersey, a blue Cleveland Barons shirt. But, when it got to 7 months, I decided to try to contact George, first by e-mail, then by phone. I got no response.

I'm on this board 3 or 4 times a week, mostly just reading. Last night, I saw all of the added responses to this thread. So, reluctantly I'm beginning to think I need to contact the NY state AG's office and get in line hopefully for a refund. With all of the heat being put on George, I strongly suspect I'll never see my Barons jersey.

I thought I had a pretty good relationship with George. Previously, he would, eventually, return my calls. He ignores all attempts to contact him via e-mail -- except for new orders of course. There are a couple of new numbers above that I will try in one last attempt to make contact with George. It that fails, then I'm going to have to get in line for the civil litigation. I really don't want to do that, but George owes me a jersey or $214.

I just sent George an e-mail via ebay. Let's see how it goes.

Like HJimm above, I blame myself.

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Does anyone have an update on what's going on with the New York state Attorney General's pending legal action against Vintage Hockey Classics?

It would be nice to know when/if I will ever see a refund check.

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Not sure what this means or whether it's permanent or temporary, but the Vintage Hockey Classics Web site is no longer operational. It went down late last week.

I sent an e-mail to the NY state Attorney General's office over the weekend, asking for an update on its pending lawsuit against VHC. It would appear, that will be the only way anyone will get a refund from owner George Kuhn.

I'm hoping that the Web site being down is a good sign that the AG legal proceedings are moving forward. It's good news for consumers, also, since I doubt that anyone would give George his/her money if they knew it would take 8-12 months to get their jersey. Assuming they ever get their jersey. To wait that long, especially when George is advertising that it takes 6 weeks for delivery, is totally absurd and misleading. If fact, the Web site is full of misleading information and photos. Some of the pictures are lifted from various Web sites, which makes me wonder it George ever made these jerseys for customers.

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All;

I stumbled across this forum while attempting to log onto the Vintage Hockey Classics website, which I see is defunct.

I purchased a Toledo Goaldiggers jersey from George in February/March of 2010. Communication with him was excellent throughout; he returned email and phone calls in reasonable amounts of time.

My only complaint is that it took almost 3 months to finally get the jersey rather than the 6-8 weeks he initially promised. However, the jersey itself is a beauty - absolutely flawless in every way, and exactly as I expected.

I am very sorry to read about all the problems, and hope each of you are able to receive proper restitution.

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It's appears that the state Attorney General's Office of New York has successfully put George Kuhn and his Vintage Hockey Classics out of business. However, a lawsuit by the Attorney General asking a judge to force Kuhn to make restitution to the many hockey jersey collectors who paid VHC but never received their jerseys has apparetnly failed. In short, it looks like George is going to get away with the scam.

I recently received the following update from Ms. Karen Davis of the New York Attorney General's Office:

"On June 27, 2012, the OAG filed a lawsuit against George Kuhn and was awarded a Judgment and Order by the Court on August 30, 2012. The Order prohibits Mr. Kuhn from accepting advance payments from consumers unless he posts a $30,000 bond. The Order further requires that Mr. Kuhn either deliver the products for which he was paid, or pay restitution. The OAG, however, may have a difficult time enforcing the judgment against Mr. Kuhn since he has few, if any. assets. We will update you of significant developments so please do not contact us for progress reports. You, of course, also have the option of proceeding directly against Mr. Kuhn."

The last two sentences of Davis' update, seem to indicate that the AG's office has done about as much as it's going to do, and anyone who wants their money back will have to sue George Kuhn directly. I'm from Pennsylvania, and I've been told by a lawyer friend that the cost of filing a civil complaint against someone out of state is cost prohibitive since George owes me $203.

The last I heard, George was still gainfully employed. I'm mystified that the presiding judge did not attach a percentage of Kuhn's wages and use that money to make full restitution to all of its cusomers that VHC scammed. The wheels of justice in Western New York indeed move in a mysterious manner.

In addition to joining the Attorney General's lawsuit against Kuhn, I also filed a complaint the Better Business Bureau. I later learned that George failed to replay to my complaint and the complaints of several others. Hence, the BBB has given VHC a grade of F.

At least I have the satisfaction of know that George Kuhn's scam, also known as Vintage Hockey Classics, is out of business.

Live and learn.

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It sounds like the AG got its judgment, rather than the lawsuit "failed"; that is a successful lawsuit. I don't practice in NY, but generally, after a judgment, one will proceed to "execution", which involves additional steps to collect the amount of the judgment. It is this process where one obtains the right to take money from a debtor's wages, bank accounts, or to take other assets to satisfy the judgment.

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Wrangler:

I appreciate your legal assessment of this mess.

When I said "apparently failed," I realize that the legal process is not over. However, I've pretty much given up any hope of getting a refund.

I say that for a couple of reason:

* Since Kuhn has little, if anything" in his piggy bank, I don't think he's into any shell games in an attempt to hide assets. Hence, the "execution" phase of the complaint shouldn't take too long to determine whether George has anything worth grabbing on behalf of the complainants.

* I received the above response from the NY AG's Office two months ago. And, that response came almost three months after the judge's ruling against VHC. That certainly should be sufficient time to attach George's wages, assuming he still has a job. And, with all of the bad pub George and his VHC has received, I would not be surprised if he's now unemployed. George was a sports writer for a Buffalo area magazine. I worked in print journalism for 35 years and I wouldn't want anyone with George's baggage on my sports staff.

I hope I'm wrong Wrangler, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for restitution.

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Typically, one doesn't waste effort and resources to pursue execution of a judgment when he doesn't believe that there are sufficient assets available. There's a time frame within which one must file suit to obtain that judgment, so it's often good to get that while you can. Once you get it, it will generally be good for a number (varies by state) of years, and the law may provide for extensions. If, during this period, the debtor manages to become worth the trouble, a judgment creditor may then pursue execution.

My main point was that it's not a failure of the legal process when a judgment creditor determnines that a debtor doesn't have enough that pursuing collection is worthwhile; I see you understand this. This case has the additional consideration that the AG's office has to decide where to allocate its limited resources for the most public benefit. Individual creditors, as they informed you, are apparently able to proceed further on their own. Unfortunately, even if Kuhn had assets, individual creditors would seem to find the cost, in time and money, prohibitive in this case.

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Your points are well taken. And, really your last paragraph says it all. Which is basically that George Kuhn, and how ever many people he scammed out of two, three or four hundred dollars each, are small potatoes in the overall scheme of things.

I spent five years as a young newspaper reporter covering the U.S. District Court in Western Pennsylvania. And, I learned that the authorities pick and choose who they go after and who they want to use the full extent of their resources (make that read money) to nail. So, not every skunk is brought to justice. And, while there may be many out there who are furious at George Kuhn (I personally know of two besides myself), George Kuhn is not Bernie Maddoff.

The bottom line here is: VHC isn't worth spending a lot of resources to nail. And, while George Kuhn's reputation certainly takes a huge hit, his only costs in this case are to pay for a defense attorney. And, since George once told me he was a lawyer, he very well may have defended himself if you are to believe that he is a lawyer.

And, another thing I learned long ago: Life is not fair.

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If you've seen how selective a U.S. Attorney's office can be, you've got some idea of how very many cases all the agencies can bring to them. They can set threshold criteria for an agency's cases, and cherry-pick from there. It should be an embarrassment to lose any case that's strong enough to make it through the selection process. And while they make take criticism for going after high-profile people and businesses, to get headlines, it's a way to get the word out, and hopefully deter more people because of it.

You sound as though you've been around long enough to be almost as old as I am.

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