*Dumb Question Alert* Re: Facebook Groups

[furiousd]

You guys trying to tell me that as a buyer, you've never walked over a 10% price difference? I don't believe you. 😅

[Devilsguy]

1 hour ago, furiousd said:

You guys trying to tell me that as a buyer, you've never walked over a 10% price difference? I don't believe you. 😅

As a buyer I have, but that's rare.  It depends on how badly I want the jersey.

However as a seller it's quite often that when I get into these situations that the buyer gives me either a sob story or how they deserve that extra 10% off due to them wanting it really badly.  If it's literally that important to them then $50 shouldn't be what stops them, but alas it miraculously does.

[Devilsguy]

2 hours ago, NYIJM29 said:

Lmao the same thing has happened to me before.  People need to think before they say things in a negotiation.  When buyers start to justify things, I just get aggravated and lose interest in dealing with someone.  "This sold for auction 2 years ago for $50 less." Ok, cool. Go in your time machine and buy it then.  Like you guys have said, "just take $50 less than your 'best price" -- no, pay $50 more if you want.  

The other thing is when people drop big money on some things and then haggle on something small.  Some guy was breaking my balls over $25 on a $325 gamer, but purchased a $2,000+ gamer the week before.  

I recently had a jersey for sale for $900.  A guy offered $600 because that's what a similar jersey of the same player it sold a year ago in one auction.  I countered and showed him an auction where another similar jersey of the same player sold within the past year that sold for $1200.  I told him he should have bought that $600 one.

I fully understand as buyers we all want to save money as much as possible.  However, my patience is not large enough to constantly play the price is right with a hobby that is meant to be enjoyed.  If it's at a price that I am comfortable paying then I buy it.

Edited January 11, 2020 by Devilsguy

[mfitz804]

You guys have gone pretty far from what we were talking about. We were talking about a 3% price difference. My proposition was that I f you don’t have 3% flexibility in your price, then you priced it wrong. 

Im certainly not suggesting you should take whatever is offered. 

[Devilsguy]

1 hour ago, mfitz804 said:

You guys have gone pretty far from what we were talking about. We were talking about a 3% price difference. My proposition was that I f you don’t have 3% flexibility in your price, then you priced it wrong. 

Im certainly not suggesting you should take whatever is offered. 

Problem is that it is extremely rare that the offers are within 3% of the asking price.  Typically I am going to take a double digit percentage lower than my asking price plus that 3% for the fees.

[mfitz804]

2 hours ago, Devilsguy said:

Problem is that it is extremely rare that the offers are within 3% of the asking price.  Typically I am going to take a double digit percentage lower than my asking price plus that 3% for the fees.

Still not what I was talking about lol. But I agree. 

[NYIJM29]

1 hour ago, mfitz804 said:

Still not what I was talking about lol. But I agree. 

I am picking up what you are saying. It is ridiculous to lose a sale over $3  PP fee on a $100 jersey, in theory (or not pay the $3+ on a purchase to insure protection). But there are situations where I dont want to incur that expense, especially to give the buyer protection.  As a buyer, there are times I would incur the expense for the protection, but if I "trust" the seller (and I know each sale is a different transaction), I would rather save the $3+ than have buyer protection (which is essentially insurance). 

[mfitz804]

10 hours ago, NYIJM29 said:

I am picking up what you are saying. It is ridiculous to lose a sale over $3  PP fee on a $100 jersey, in theory (or not pay the $3+ on a purchase to insure protection). But there are situations where I dont want to incur that expense, especially to give the buyer protection.  As a buyer, there are times I would incur the expense for the protection, but if I "trust" the seller (and I know each sale is a different transaction), I would rather save the $3+ than have buyer protection (which is essentially insurance). 

Of course, that’s why we use F&F when we trust the sellers. But I stand by what I said, if you are concerned about saving a $3 fee on a $100 jersey, or even $30 on a $1000 jersey, then you set your price wrong. 

If the $1000 jersey was actually $1200 and you’ve negotiated down to $1000 and don’t want to go down another $30, then I see your argument. 

[JJM4]

I figured this would fit in the dumb question realm so here it is:

Can you patch over a wordmark with a vector on 2.0's? 

I'm pretty certain all I've heard and read has been about wordmark patched over the vector logo. 

I'm sure it's really one and the same but which is bigger the wordmark or the vector? Do you sew the vector to a piece of fabric or twill then sew it over the wordmark?

 

[spudrock512]

9 hours ago, JJM4 said:

I figured this would fit in the dumb question realm so here it is:

Can you patch over a wordmark with a vector on 2.0's? 

I'm pretty certain all I've heard and read has been about wordmark patched over the vector logo. 

I'm sure it's really one and the same but which is bigger the wordmark or the vector? Do you sew the vector to a piece of fabric or twill then sew it over the wordmark?

 

You can unstitch the Reebok wordmark, and remove it. You can then sew the vector in place of were the wordmark was. I did it with my Toews 2010 Stanley Cup Jersey.

 

Edited January 13, 2020 by spudrock512

[JJM4]

Nice, thanks for the info!

[Devilsguy]

Interesting topic in the FB group about why people's interest in the hobby seems to have waned recently.

[DM67]

@Devilsguy - I guess I can answer the G&S thing. Reddit is crawling with scammers, so the blanket rule is G&S. You see it in the hardwareswap subreddit, and every other major sub that has selling rules. Pretty standard on reddit. We also put it into place because people were coming up with crazy percentages for G&S (6%!?). We had someone literally yesterday get scammed and they're thankful they used G&S and have some recourse. Of course if it's someone you know and trust, using F&F is totally reasonable. I feel like enough people know me and can vouch for me that I don't mind offering F&F on not-reddit platforms. G&S is there for buyer protection, and gives sellers chargeback protection, so that's nice as well. 

We can't control what happens in DM's, but we can lay down some blanket rules to help protect people.

Unlike FB and other forums, when a mod "removes" a post on reddit, it can be "approved" and pops right back up, nbd, no need to make a second post. Think of a mod removing a post like "hiding" it. It's also kinda ballsy to ask for $1300 for jerseys without pics, from anonymous people on the internet with no safety net. Your post would've been removed on here too for not including pictures.

Edited January 22, 2020 by DM67
clarification, typos

[Devilsguy]

Edit: edited due to me not really giving a $&@*.  I already explained the picture part was on me in an earlier post.  Regardless I don't care anymore that I'm banned there.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Devilsguy

[mfitz804]

1 hour ago, DM67 said:

@Devilsguy - I guess I can answer the G&S thing. Reddit is crawling with scammers, so the blanket rule is G&S. You see it in the hardwareswap subreddit, and every other major sub that has selling rules. Pretty standard on reddit. We also put it into place because people were coming up with crazy percentages for G&S (6%!?). We had someone literally yesterday get scammed and they're thankful they used G&S and have some recourse. Of course if it's someone you know and trust, using F&F is totally reasonable. I feel like enough people know me and can vouch for me that I don't mind offering F&F on not-reddit platforms. G&S is there for buyer protection, and gives sellers chargeback protection, so that's nice as well. 

We can't control what happens in DM's, but we can lay down some blanket rules to help protect people.

Unlike FB and other forums, when a mod "removes" a post on reddit, it can be "approved" and pops right back up, nbd, no need to make a second post. Think of a mod removing a post like "hiding" it. It's also kinda ballsy to ask for $1300 for jerseys without pics, from anonymous people on the internet with no safety net. Your post would've been removed on here too for not including pictures.

I'd be interested in hearing the logic behind it. Especially about people are adding 6%. What difference does that make, its unreasonable and if someone asks for it, I wouldn't buy from them. That's only hurting themselves, in my opinion. Otherwise as a buyer, you just factor it in and see if the overall price is worth it. 

Why do you feel differently about it on Reddit as opposed to other platforms? Certainly the risk is the same regardless of the platform, isn't it?

Feels like maybe you're getting a little too involved in other people's transactions. If people aren't worried about protecting themselves, I don't see why you'd worry about it. 

[jsh139]

3 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Feels like maybe you're getting a little too involved in other people's transactions. If people aren't worried about protecting themselves, I don't see why you'd worry about it.

This.  I don't see why it's the moderators' jobs to police the transactions.  I don't recall any online forum where the mods got involved in the classified sections (other than removing ads that don't follow obvious rules like stating a price and showing pictures).  How people choose to exchange money is on them.

[DM67]

@mfitz804 When we made the rule, we said almost exactly what you said about the 3% - just work it into your price and get the protection. I can make an account and post whatever I want with no delay, since there's no verification system or anything on reddit (fault of the platform, [1][2]). Compared to other platforms, we aren't given certain tools. We can't screen every single post that comes through unlike the FB groups because it isn't a private subreddit. We made rules about account age and stuff, but there's no way to verify anything. Reddit also doesn't have a content threshold like on here - if there was, Devilsguy wouldn't have been able to post since it was one of his first posts. For context, if some random person came on, didn't post pics, and was asking $1300 via F&F, it's a little fishy, no? It's not a targeted thing, it's just us enforcing the rules.

There's almost 40k people subscribed to the subreddit, and that's a lot of potential trouble. We had it happen literally yesterday where someone bought a jersey, then the person deleted their account. Fortunately, the buyer used G&S and can get their money back. 

And @jsh139 - you're right - at the end of the day what goes down in the DM is entirely outside moderator control. However, in a forum of a ton of anonymous jerkbags, we decided to do something to try to make it a safe place to sell stuff given the lack of filter that we're given by the reddit overlords. 

Also technically, as it reads, it's against paypal T&C to charge for G&S. But then again, no one reads those. I've never had someone open a case against me for INAD via PayPal, but I've seen a lot of people (including myself ages ago) get scammed via PayPal F&F.

We also have the trusted reddit users page - but again, no one reads that. 

Edited January 22, 2020 by DM67

[DM67]

Some things to try to filter out jerks: 

- Set the subreddit to private... which would kill growth. When's the last time you were allowed into a private subreddit? 

- Filter and manually approve every post: I've seen the headache the FB mods have to deal with on that. Pass.

- Set a karma threshold: Easily passed thanks to the freekarma4u subreddit

- Set an age threshold: In place, must be 2 days old otherwise requires mod approval to post or comment. Exception is the legit check thread. Doesn't stop people from scamming people.

- Set up a verification bot: I've seen the crazy of the r/hardwareswap bot that does verification. It would override the existing flair that people seem to really like, and it does a lot of stuff that we don't care about like post title formatting.

- We have an automoderator entry for FS posts that says to use G&S. It's also in the rules. 

Edited January 22, 2020 by DM67

[Devilsguy]

Oh FFS now you are making me go back on my last post. I offered G&S as well on my initial post with a 4% fee on top.  I guess I'm automatically a scammer because I gave more than one option for payment and I had a little trouble adding pictures (which again I said was on me).

Yeah adding % on G&S is technically against PayPal rules, but that didn't deter you from asking for it on your Brind'Amour sale post on Facebook.  Not sure why you are throwing that out there.

 

[Devilsguy]

40 minutes ago, jsh139 said:

This.  I don't see why it's the moderators' jobs to police the transactions.  I don't recall any online forum where the mods got involved in the classified sections (other than removing ads that don't follow obvious rules like stating a price and showing pictures).  How people choose to exchange money is on them.

Asking people to make their own judgement call seems to be too big of an ask these days.

[mfitz804]

@DM67, I just started as the admin of my own private (non-jersey) forum and I am interested in this topic. Not trying to be a jerk at all, but I have more questions. Not trying to criticize your policies, just evaluating the ones I have in place on my own board. 

1) Why do you feel like its your duty to offer protection to people? Everyone knows dealing with people on a message board is fraught with issues. Why not just leave it that dealing is at your own risk?

2) Along the same lines, why do you feel it necessary to enforce PayPal's terms of service? You're clearly right, and using F&F is actually not only a circumvention of their rules, but could also be considered theft of services. But that's between the user and PayPal, why would you as an admin want to stick yourself in the middle of that situation?

3) INAD PayPal claims are very easy to make and win, if you've never had one, you're lucky. Requiring G&S only assures that the buyer is more protected than the seller. I'm not sure that's a stance I would want to take on my own site, as to me members who are selling are of equal value to members who are buying. 

4) Are other forms of payment (Venmo, etc.) also prohibited?

1 minute ago, Devilsguy said:

Yeah adding % on G&S is technically against PayPal rules, but that didn't deter you from asking for it on your Brind'Amour sale post on Facebook.  Not sure why you are throwing that out there.

5) That seems like its pretty inconsistent. 

[Devilsguy]

5 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

@DM67, I just started as the admin of my own private (non-jersey) forum and I am interested in this topic. Not trying to be a jerk at all, but I have more questions. Not trying to criticize your policies, just evaluating the ones I have in place on my own board. 

1) Why do you feel like its your duty to offer protection to people? Everyone knows dealing with people on a message board is fraught with issues. Why not just leave it that dealing is at your own risk?

2) Along the same lines, why do you feel it necessary to enforce PayPal's terms of service? You're clearly right, and using F&F is actually not only a circumvention of their rules, but could also be considered theft of services. But that's between the user and PayPal, why would you as an admin want to stick yourself in the middle of that situation?

3) INAD PayPal claims are very easy to make and win, if you've never had one, you're lucky. Requiring G&S only assures that the buyer is more protected than the seller. I'm not sure that's a stance I would want to take on my own site, as to me members who are selling are of equal value to members who are buying. 

4) Are other forms of payment (Venmo, etc.) also prohibited?

5) That seems like its pretty inconsistent. 

3) someone was hit with that a few months ago in a caps game worn group.  A couple months after it was sold the buyer got buyers remorse and initiated the INAD claim and won.  Not only that but he sent it back in packaging that was poor to say the least.

Lest we also forget the infamous Vegas "ceased LOA folder" saga of 2018 as well.

[DM67]

Different platforms, different rules, don't know what else to tell you. Seems like you're bent on hating me, so that's fine. I didn't call you a scammer, I asked you to look at from a different context. 

Yea, it's technically against the ToS but in the context of the platform, F&F on FB is the standard. People also (typically) use their real name and their real profile on FB, so they tend to be more honest. It's also small private groups, whereas reddit is a wide-open thing.

At the end of the day, what goes down in the DM's is entirely between two people. All we can do as mods is try to make a place full of anonymous people is put some safety rules in place.

1) I've been scammed in the past, and it's the worst feeling watching $300 float away. We put the rule in place to protect people from scammers at the behest of the userbase. G&S enforcement is also standard across any larger subreddit that has buying and selling rules, so in the effort of learning from the existing giants, we did the same. [1][2]

2) I don't feel like enforcing the ToS. Text loses all tone - I couldn't care less about paypal's actual terms, I was just throwing it out there that it could be technically construed as breaking their ToS. I use F&F all the time to pay people I trust. People don't know who u/mr_peanut is, so they should protect themselves. 

3) I guess I'm lucky then

4) As far as posting goes, Paypal is basically the standard. Venmo/Square/etc all have their own risks, same as F&F 

5) Platform context 🤷‍♂️

Edited January 22, 2020 by DM67

[DM67]

From a personal perspective, the 180 days that paypal allows for G&S claims is just stupid. 60 days? Sure. 180?! Yikes.

I also used to not put F&F as an option on FB until I felt that I was a bit more established as someone trustworthy. But that's my own idiosyncrasy. 

Edited January 22, 2020 by DM67

[mfitz804]

7 minutes ago, DM67 said:

4) As far as posting goes, Paypal is basically the standard. Venmo/Square/etc all have their own risks. 

5) Platform context 🤷‍♂️

Re: #4, that didn't really answer my question, I am curious as to whether you have hard and fast rules against other forms of payment. 

Re: #5, that isn't a great answer. It'd be just as easy to scam people from other platforms, wouldn't it? And you yourself are putting items for sale on other platforms with a caveat that F&F can be used, is that because you think you're that well known that everyone should know you are honest?

Again, just curious as I am in the early stages of my own forum that I am still working out all of the kinks on. 

2 minutes ago, DM67 said:

From a personal perspective, the 180 days that paypal allows for G&S claims is just stupid. 60 days? Sure. 180?! Yikes.

Even 60 days is completely stupid. 48 hours after delivery is more than sufficient in my opinion, however if you have the luxury of/job that requires you to travel for extended periods, I could see MAYBE 21-30 days. Anything after that is completely unfair to the seller. If you need more than 30 days to determine whether my item is "as described", that should be your issue, not mine.